Curious First: A New Model for True Leaders

What if your biggest leadership mistake wasn't the decisions you made, but the mental model you were carrying when you made them?

Leadership coach Kurt Bush started out believing leaders had to have all the answers. Spoiler: it nearly cost him the room. What he discovered instead, through mentorship, a pandemic, and a lot of curiosity, reshaped how he shows up in every room, every conversation, every crisis.

In this episode, Lauri and Kurt dive into one of the clearest lessons to come out of high-pressure seasons like the pandemic: how we do things matters more than what we do. From pastoring in 2020 to leading volunteer teams and cultures, Kurt shares why he aims to be the least anxious presence in the room and how curiosity supports that. They explore curiosity as a leadership skill, and why being present is often the first step toward better decisions, stronger relationships, and healthier conflict.

Plus, the brimstone butterfly, a ropes course story, a physicist around a fire pit, and why the best pastor in town might have 10 people in the pews.

TAKEAWAYS

1. The mental model you carry into leadership shapes everything, including whether people actually follow you.

2. Trying to hide that you don't have all the answers never works. People always know.

3. How we do things is even more important than what we do.

4. Curiosity and presence are linked: it's nearly impossible to be genuinely curious without being present at the same time.

5. Anxiety in leadership often comes from an outdated model: needing to be right, in control, having answers. Curiosity dissolves it.

6. "Do you want to say more about that?" is a question that creates space, buys processing time, and invites deeper thinking. 75% of the time, people work themselves to a more grounded place.

7. The room takes on the leader's personality. What energy are you bringing in?

8. A leader is simply someone with people following them — everything else works itself out from there.

9. The best leaders may be the quietest ones, leading closely with a few, not loudly with many.

If you love this show and you’re looking for some new shows to fill your queue, head over to feministpodcasterscollective.com to explore everything FPC has to offer. 

Soul Sucker Quiz

Take the Soul Sucker Quiz to learn which Soul Sucker screams the loudest in your mind so you can release them from being in charge and set your voice free!

https://voice-matters.com/soul-sucker-quiz/

Transcript

Welcome + Kurt introduces himself

Lauri 0:00

Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Untamed Leader podcast. My guest today is Kurt Busch, and for a fun change of pace, Kurt is going to introduce himself to you. Welcome, Kurt.

Kurt 0:13

Hey, Lori. Thanks for having me. It's a gift to be here to talk to you and your audience. Uh yeah, so uh I'm I'm I'm a leadership coach. I help leaders of all kinds uh be more focused on how to become the leader they want to be, uh, who and how they want to be, and help them get on stuck so they can take steps towards transformation, that their uh that their life and leadership might be more full and more authentic.

Lauri 0:39

I love that. And I am curious,

Where leadership began: a manufacturing plant, early 20s

Lauri 0:43

where did your leadership journey first begin?

Kurt 0:48

Yeah, that's a good question. Uh it's I'm gonna need like three hours, Lori. Uh I uh when I was really young, I was in my early 20s. Uh, I worked at a manufacturing plant. Uh, I got a chance to lead a team of people in some process improvement uh procedures uh and some teams that were looking to make processes more efficient. Uh that was really kind of my first like formal trip into leadership. Uh and I got some uh some really great opportunities from there to lead a production team and then some recruiting processes as well.

Lauri 1:24

Mm-hmm. And did it go really well your very first time? Did you have any stumbling blocks or learnings?

The mental model that almost cost him the room

Kurt 1:32

It did not go well.

Lauri 1:34

How did I know?

Kurt 1:36

How did you know? It's almost like this is a universal experience. Uh no, it did not go well. Uh I held a mental model that said leadership was about kind of being the expert in the room, uh, that leadership meant I had to have all the answers. And I just learned really quickly I didn't have all the answers. And I sort of tried to compensate for that in ways that uh kind of took me further away from real leadership, trying to kind of fit this mental model that I had.

Lauri 2:02

And what were the costs to you and the people you were leading from trying to have all the answers and kind of fitting that mental model?

Kurt 2:14

Yeah, I I think the well, the easy one for the for the people that I was trying to lead is that that they they weren't following me. They they could tell, right? Um, I thought I was hiding it pretty well. Uh that I was searching for all the answers. I was trying to kind of fit this mental model. I thought I was hiding it. Uh, but you know, people are smart, people know. And they could tell that I was, you know, trying to trying to protect myself more so than I was trying to lead. Um so so I think that was the cost for the people I was trying to leave. I think lead. I think the cost for me was like I just never felt comfortable. It never felt uh like I was actually leading. It felt like I was constantly trying to find the next thing that I needed to feel like a good leader, right? Uh to feel like I could show up well.

Lauri 3:03

And um what else was in that mental model? I feel like we all kind of grew up with one, and there may be some similarities, and there also might be some differences from the model that you had in your head to the model I had in my head.

Kurt 3:18

Yeah, certainly being sort of the expert, but also this like idea of authority. Uh, this idea that that I was the boss, that that that I had the authority to be listened to just because I was leading something, uh, that that really undermined relationships. That really undermined the the work that I could have been doing to try to build trust and build collaboration and build culture. Uh I was really kind of focused on exercising my authority to get the outcome that I wanted.

Lauri 3:50

Yeah. And um I

Pivotal moments: 2020 and the lesson about how we lead

Lauri 3:54

would imagine that you moved on from that leadership experience and then possibly had a couple of other pivotal ones along the way. Can you share some of those pivotal experiences and what you learned from them?

Kurt 4:09

Yeah, there's one that stands out really boldly for me. I don't know if you remember 2020, Lori. Do you remember 2020?

Lauri 4:16

Let me see. Um, yes, I do.

Kurt 4:20

Uh so in 2020, in the middle of the pandemic, I was I was uh pastoring a church. Uh I was I was on a pastoral staff of about four or five of us. Um, and I learned from a mentor of mine, I learned this phrase that how we do things is just as important, if not just as important, if not more important, than what we do. Um and and I've just never forgotten that. And I I saw that play out in the way that he led. I've seen it play out in the way that that I've led. Um, that was a pivotal moment for me. I mean, there was so much going on in 2020. And, you know, I'd learned other things about, you know, how I wanted to show up as a leader. But I think that one moment, this idea that that no matter what I'm leading, how I do it is is probably more important than even the decisions I make or the answers that I have or the results that I get.

Lauri 5:15

Yeah. I love that because I do a lot of my leading in theater now. I'm I'm a director and an actor. There's a bit more leading from the front. There's a lot more leading from the front as a director.

Kurt 5:31

Yeah.

Lauri 5:31

And I work at a theater company. I'm the co-artistic director there. It's a collective theater company. So it is in its DNA, it is not top-down. Yeah. And as a director, there are times where the director does make the final decision. And how that moment happens is really key. How the moment happens and also how we get there. So that it's not, my style is very much not dictatorial, including, you know, when I was a kid, there would be directors who would tell people where to move. Like you haven't even done the scene yet, and the directors are prescribing where you move. And that could not be further from my natural-born way of doing it. I'm like, you know, go create, generate stuff, and I'll watch it and I'll look at what's alive, and then I'll shape your creations into something that the audience can process.

Kurt 6:35

Yeah.

Lauri 6:36

And when we make the final decision of no, I'm not going with Nancy's suggestion, I'm going with Bob's suggestion. How we deliver that and how we get there makes all the difference in the world. Yeah.

Kurt 6:51

Yeah. 100%. Can I ask a question about what you just said?

Lauri 6:54

Yeah.

Kurt 6:55

Um,

Lauri on theater directing — leading without controlling

Kurt 6:56

I I love how you framed your style of leading in that case. And I I've I don't know that I've ever been around someone leading in that sort of scenario. Um, how did you get there? That that feels like a really beautiful picture of leadership in that context. Was that natural to you or did you have to build that?

Lauri 7:16

Uh it was both. So I believe it's my natural style, but like you, I had impressions of how you're supposed to do it. Yeah. So there was a bit of in my early days, stumbling and trying to do it in the more like, well, I came to rehearsal with the entire scene already blocked. And it's just not my state. So I would find myself playing with exercises. And actually, you are reminding me of one of the most pivotal. I'm gonna be fair and also tell you some not great moments as well, because I've had times where I tried to control everything, like in my 20s, tried to control everything in theater as a director and everywhere in my life, and then responded like a martyr, wouldn't accept help from anybody.

Kurt 8:10

Yeah.

Lauri 8:11

And then responded like a martyr when I got tired. And like, how come everybody's making me do all of these things by myself?

Kurt 8:18

Yeah.

Lauri 8:18

And that would happen at times in theater. And in my early 20s, you know, I would kind of go back and forth between how I thought you're supposed to do it and what felt good and right to me.

Kurt 8:33

Yeah.

Lauri 8:34

And I was directing a friend's play. We I had done a couple of her plays. They were monologue plays, so different characters giving monologues straight to the audience for most of the play. And they were interspersed, and there was there were stories in the monologues. And I remember one day saying, We're just gonna kind of have a fun through today. So as one character is telling their story, everybody else act it out. Like if they're talking about there being a shower, make a shower. Yeah. Just, you know, play and do that. And I watched them do that, and it had started as just an exercise, but some parts of it were so alive and so fun and so perfect. We didn't have cell phones at that point, or I would have just videoed it. Yeah. I was taking notes about what they were doing. And then the learning from that of like, hey, if you just let them play and then watch what they do and write down what worked particularly well, yeah, they're more alive. My job as a director is easier.

Kurt 9:44

Yeah, yeah.

Lauri 9:45

That became my whole style. And

Trust yourself: the student who saw Lauri's coaching style before she did

Lauri 9:51

there was another key moment in which actually led to me becoming a coach. A student in a theater class where I was teaching came up to me one day and said, You're different. The other teacher, even though theater is ensemble based, the other teachers are still teaching with the professorial style. They're professing their knowledge down to the rest of us. And she said, When you trust yourself, you have more of a coaching style. And you wouldn't know this because you're not in the other classes, but you are drawing the best performances out of my classmates. You look like you're reading people's minds. And then she said, But when you don't trust yourself, it's really not working for you.

Kurt 10:40

Interesting.

Lauri 10:42

Because it's not your style, you're just doing it because you think that's what you're supposed to do, or those are the teachers you had. And I immediately went and signed up for a coaching class on her recommendation to understand my natural style. So those are some of the big pieces that popped into mind in this moment of how I got from wait, I'm trying to do it like other people to no, I've even invented a technique now for work. I think I invented it. We call it feeding in, where we take the scripts away from the actors, unlike day one. Just here's the situation, sit across from each other or stand in the space, knowing what's going on. And then we will feed you what you're supposed to say.

Kurt 11:27

Okay.

Lauri 11:28

And their bodies will move through the space more like they do on closing night.

Kurt 11:33

Sure.

Lauri 11:33

And we take the blocking from what their bodies are naturally doing. That's how far I've swung in the like, I don't try to do it like other people anymore.

Kurt 11:42

Yeah.

Lauri 11:42

And last story, you asked one question. You got all these stories.

Kurt 11:45

I asked because I wanted the stories.

Lauri 11:47

I know. Um, I was directing Frankenstein in the fall, and there was a chorus of women. And I did because it was like, we have this teeny tiny little weird, like a basement space with a teeny tiny little main stage area, and then lots of different pathways to get onto that teeny tiny little space. And the first day that we were working the chorus into all of the scenes so that they're there all the time and they're moving through the scenes at times, with Frankenstein not aware that they're there. I tried to pre-block where they were gonna go. And for about five minutes, it was like slow. I could feel pressure in my head. I'm pretty sure my eyebrows were doing this. And then I just went, what am I doing? And I went, I'm sorry, I don't know what I was just doing. I'd like to try something else. I want the chorus to go on stage and move around Frankenstein. Frankenstein, you don't know that they're there. So just take over the stage and we'll probably create some chaos, and then I'll shape the chaos. You have full reign, go wherever you want. And as is typically the case, they were such good performers and so aware of their bodies. They took over the space and they naturally spaced themselves. And Frankenstein was like lifting heavy equipment, getting his lab ready, and they did like this move of he doesn't even realize she's there, and they're just naturally moving around each other. And when it was all done, I went, Jenny, could you move about three feet to your left? Okay, that scene's done. So it was about 45 seconds when I let them make a mess. Yeah. Not all of them worked out that perfectly. Some of them did have a little bit more of like, you need to move this way, you need to move that way, you need to take a different path. But that one was like, it's the universe's way of coming in and going, stop trying to control it all. Because when you tried to control it all, it was like five minutes that could have been hours of hard work and wasted time and you wouldn't even get there.

Kurt 14:04

Yeah.

Lauri 14:04

And then it was about 45 seconds of just run the scene and let's see what happens.

Kurt 14:09

Yeah. Yeah. I I love that, Lori. Uh thanks for thanks for sharing. I love that.

Lauri 14:14

Yeah. So back to you. I want to know more about your journey and how how you got to be the leader you are today, and also what drew you to coaching other leaders.

Kurt 14:29

Yeah. Well, I had a lot of really good mentors and good coaches myself. Uh, like I I can point, like my leadership style, I can point to a couple of people that just really invested deeply in me. Uh, and and this, this leader who who taught me how I do things is just as important as the results. Uh, like I I just I'm so grateful for the way that he helped me kind of live that out and see uh how important it was to like be the least anxious presence in the room. That's something that's really important to me. Um the value of curiosity, this person taught me like be curious. It's okay to be curious. Be curious first. There's lots of time for certainty later. Be curious first. Um so I mean, those again, I I just I I can't thank those people enough and for for giving me a chance to like lead in places that were safe to try things on, right?

Lauri 15:24

Um I have a question. Yeah. I'm interrupting the flow. No, that's okay.

Kurt 15:28

Go ahead.

Lauri 15:29

I

Curiosity as the antidote to anxiety — the fire pit physicist

Lauri 15:30

found myself curious about the relationship between curiosity and being the least anxious person in the room.

Kurt 15:39

Yeah. Um yeah, do can you ask that a little differently?

Lauri 15:43

Yes. Um So I'll say, instead of you know trying to be like a brilliant succinct host, I'll say um it it feels like there is a relationship because we're in very turbulent times. So it would be really easy to be the most anxious person or one of them in any number of rooms, even as a leader right now.

Kurt 16:07

Yeah.

Lauri 16:07

Does curiosity help you to maintain your lack of anxiousness to feel grounded in the middle of chaos? And if so, how?

Kurt 16:20

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Thanks for saying it like that. I think that's a profound question. I think two things are true for for me. Curiosity encourages presence. Um, I have a really hard time being curious and not present. Like I have to be present to be curious. Um I think what's true for me is some of my anxiety in turbulent times can be based on fear. Uh and some of it can be based on still that old mental model of wanting to be right, wanting to be in control, wanting to have answers. Uh, curiosity for me over the years has sort of been rooted in this idea that there's so much to know, and I only know a limited amount of that. Um I I had a friend, uh, I sat around the fire pit with a friend of mine who's very smart, he's a physicist, uh, and he was sharing what he knows about light, the properties of light. And I'm like soaking it up like a kindergartner. I'm like, keep talking, keep talking. And he he sort of ended this conversation about the the natural world by saying, if somebody tells you they know crap about crap, uh, he didn't say those words, but that's the the version that I'm gonna share here. If somebody tells you they know crap about crap, they they don't know anything about anything. Uh and I've I've really taken that to heart. There's so much to know, and there's so much to learn that that my curiosity is rooted in that idea that that I can't possibly know all there is to know. That there is always something to learn from anybody in the room about a situation, about a process, about people, about relationships. Uh so I I think that sort of connection to to being the least anxious person in the room is rooted in this idea that I can't know everything. Uh so if if that's true, what do I have to be anxious about? And and it does stir up. Like anxiety does still stir up. I I don't want to give the impression that I'm non-anxious. I like to say less anxious. Uh but but I think that pairing has to be present for me. Like I have to remind myself, curiosity is actually about learning. Um, and the the anxiety of having to know the answers just isn't isn't a threat. There's there's not a threat there. Or at least if the threat is there, I'm unwilling to to to bend to the threat.

Lauri 18:44

Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, in the middle of turbulent times, we're all probably going to feel things. And uh I have had moments as a leader, some of the ones that people will tell me are like my most powerful ones, where one minute I'm sobbing.

Kurt 19:06

Yeah.

Lauri 19:07

And then I picked my head up during one of those moments, sobbing, being present with what was real in the moment and was hard for all of us. And then picked my head up and said, and it's all going to be okay. In fact, it's going to be even better.

Kurt 19:23

Yeah.

Lauri 19:24

We're just in the hard part right now. Yeah. And I watched, you know, half of the room, it was on Zoom. So half of the room was like, How on earth is she finding that right now?

Kurt 19:35

And some of the other people in the room who knew me a little better and were like, This is, of course, this is what she does, you know, like you

One question that changes the room: "Do you want to say more?"

Kurt 19:48

know, Lori, one of the things I would do, um this 2020 to 2024 timeframe for me was probably the hardest of my leadership career. And one of the things I would do is uh if I was in a meeting with volunteer leaders, as a leader of a church, all of the people I led are volunteer leaders that they're they're literally giving of their time to lead.

Lauri 20:12

Uh same in the theater. My particular theater company. It's all a labor of love. Yeah.

Kurt 20:18

Yes. So you understand completely. Uh one of the things that I would do in in this in these rooms where people are are doing the best they can but are very anxious, um, I would employ the tool to say, do you want to say more about that? Uh and you know, it's 50% yes, I want to know if they want to say more about that. Uh, but that question buys me time to get ahead of my anxiety. Right. Uh if somebody says something that is turbulent or stirs me up, if I can get ahead of my anxiety and say, Do you want to say more about that? I have a chance to learn, but I also have a chance to compose myself.

Lauri 20:56

Uh Wow. Yeah. That's that feels powerful and could be a great skill for a lot of us in the world because it it gives the person who was speaking who may have triggered you or me more space instead of trying to shut it down or fight against it. And giving us more time to process while also hearing them. Yeah. And giving them that space is hugely powerful for everyone involved.

Kurt 21:29

Yeah. Yeah. You know, 25% of the time somebody is going to double down with their anxiety. You know, 25% of the time, somebody's going to say the stirring thing again. But 75% of the time, uh, when I I think when we as leaders welcome people to think more deeply, to, to continue their thought process, I I just have seen, you know, three out of four times people are gonna kind of work themselves through whatever they're saying that makes them feel anxious. Maybe not to like completion. But but at least to a to a more grounded place uh that looks a lot more like their best thinking than anxiety.

Lauri 22:07

Yeah, then the reaction.

Kurt 22:09

Yeah. Yeah.

Lauri 22:10

During the pandemic, I was reminded of the there's the Victor Frankel quote, in between stimulus and response, there is a space. Not just reminded of it, but like really deep. I'm a spiral.

Kurt 22:25

Yeah.

Lauri 22:26

You know, keep learning the same life lesson again and again and again.

Kurt 22:29

Yeah.

Stimulus and response — slowing down the reaction

Lauri 22:30

For better or for worse. And most of the time when I'm learning it again and again, I'm learning it in a deeper and deeper way.

Kurt 22:36

Yeah.

Lauri 22:37

And during the pandemic, prior to the pandemic, this whole apartment that you see me sitting in was my office.

Kurt 22:44

Yeah.

Lauri 22:46

On March 6th, 2020, my now husband got the email from his office that said, we would like all of you to work from home through the end of the month. We don't want you to get on public transportation and we don't want it to spread in the office. And when he told me they said that, I knew. Because I had a a client that had been talking about the pandemic and I had been listening to her from the like, you know, like in January. I don't know. She's talking about this crazy thing that she thinks is is gonna be a big thing. Yeah. Like way before any, you know, January.

Kurt 23:20

Yeah.

Lauri 23:21

And I was like, you know, just well, what does your intuition say? Well, what do you notice about your energy? Well, what feels right to you? All those things to help her do what was right for her. And when he said they told us not to come into the office through the end of the month, I went, and my mind was replaying all the stuff that she was saying, more from a like the totality of the picture that she had been painting and things I'd heard on the news by March. And it was like, oh, this is over. Yeah. Like you're never going back to the office again. Yeah.

Kurt 23:55

Yeah.

Lauri 23:56

So there was a lot of when you're, you know, not just in the same space, but there were fires out here that made it unhealthy to go outside and breathe at the same point in each other's face all the time. There were a few moments where I felt like, oh, I'm consciously almost slowing down time right now and watching energy rise in my body. Oh, I think this might actually be what triggered means in my body. What if I didn't speak? What happens to it if I let it pass?

Kurt 24:37

Yeah. Yeah.

Lauri 24:38

So when you say, can you tell me more about that? And you wait, some version of the like fiery hot or icy cold or whatever it is that is your reaction as a leader probably kind of goes through a cycle. And then you and they are more in a place to engage, respond rather than react from their higher selves.

Kurt 25:03

Yeah, that's right. 100%. And and then the room will begin to do that to them to each other, uh, which uh doesn't happen overnight. But but what I saw was over the course of years, the room began to ask each other that question. The leaders began to to kind of use that themselves and listen well. So I, you know, I think that's always the the hope is that the way we show up as a leader then begins the way we we show up as leaders.

The store has the personality of the manager

Lauri 25:32

Yeah. And and we're holding a space decades ago when I worked at Long's Drugs, I was interviewing to move to a different location and like interviewing with all the managers of different Long's Drugs. And the assistant manager from the one that I was at said, you know, good luck on your tour looking. Just keep in mind as you meet with all of them, the store generally has the personality of the manager.

Kurt 26:00

Interesting.

Lauri 26:02

And so grateful that he said that because I chose one that was a little further away from where we were living. There was along struggles like every two miles at most. I chose one that was a little further away from where we were living because the personality of the manager closest, I was like, ew, I want to get out of this room. Yeah. The store feels dirty and gray. And the one that was a little further away, it was like, this is long's drugs. Like these most people, it's not their highest dream to work there. And yet everyone seemed happy, content, present. The store seemed lighter. And in his office, I could have sat there for 90 minutes for an interview. I loved being in his world, and that's the store that I chose.

Kurt 26:57

Yeah. Yeah. Super interesting. I love that.

Lauri 27:00

Yeah. Yeah. Great advice. So now let me ask you when you hear the word untamed, what does the word untamed spark in you?

What "untamed" sparks in Kurt + the lid metaphor

Kurt 27:14

Oh, that's a good question. I I think it makes me a little nervous. It makes my anxiety stir up a little bit. Uh I I think that my initial response is um uh uh a question of like what parts of me are untamed? Uh and like is is being tamed a good thing? I I don't know how to answer that, Lori, if I'm honest. But uh my first stirrings are questions. Uh and and maybe you can help me answer them, but those are the first stirrings I have.

Lauri 27:48

Yeah, I love the awareness that it makes you feel a little nervous.

Kurt 27:55

Yeah.

Lauri 27:57

It even for some of my ideal clients, it probably makes some a little nervous. Like using the word like wild or untamed makes some people go automatically to like a rabid dog kind of thing.

Kurt 28:14

Sure.

Lauri 28:15

I'm happy to answer questions. And I'm curious what what questions are coming up for you.

Kurt 28:26

Yeah, I I think the uh one of the values that go along with curiosity that I hold is is this this value to like keep learning about myself, that this sort of growing self-awareness. And I I I wonder all the time what parts of me are uh sort of, I'm gonna use your word wild in a sense, like this is wild that's going to help me grow. This is going, this is a part of me that's made that maybe I've kept a lid on. Uh and is that lid appropriate when it when is it appropriate? When is it stifling? So I think those are all questions that that stir up in me. I I like the imagery of a lid. Um I think that's a helpful image for me. I don't know. What would you how would you respond to those questions?

Lauri 29:17

Yeah, I I love the image of a lid as well, because in a leadership program that I did, they would call it lids down. Like when there's something about yourself that you are suppressing.

Kurt 29:29

Yeah, yeah.

Lauri 29:30

And and the other word that's popping into my head right now is choice. I love for it to be a choice.

Kurt 29:38

I love that, yeah.

Lauri 29:39

And if our lids are down and they've been down so long that we can't even pry them open anymore, I don't love that.

Kurt 29:47

Yeah, yeah.

Lauri 29:49

I love you can open the lid, you can pull the old things out, you can tuck them away, knowing that you're choosing not to access certain parts of yourself in certain moments, but the possibility of accessing all parts of ourselves is actually there because we're the one opening or closing the lid, not default habits.

Kurt 30:12

I love that so much, Lori. Uh, I just want like this goes with cooking. Like, I kind of want you to cook for a little bit. I I love the idea of having the agency to control the lid.

Lauri 30:24

Yeah.

Kurt 30:24

I love that.

Lauri 30:25

Yeah. Yeah. I forgot you had other questions, so I can cook more.

Kurt 30:32

I mean, I I think that's the main question. I I think my my natural posture is when when I feel nervous or anxious, I always want to just understand like why why do I feel nervous or anxious? Yeah. So I I think that's that's the other question of like what what about those parts of me that I might call wild? What about them feel risky? Or what about them feel um un unknown or uncharted?

Lauri 30:59

Mm-hmm.

Kurt 31:00

Yeah.

Lauri 31:01

Yeah. I am curious. Do you have any answers? What about those parts feel risky?

Kurt 31:09

Yeah. Yeah. So the there's a so we do a decent amount of internal family systems work uh in our coaching practice. And I've said we, uh, I have a coaching partner. Uh there's two of us. So if I say we, like he's not in the room. Uh but uh we do a lot of internal family systems work uh around parts and integrating parts. Um and I know there's parts of me that I've exiled that I'm doing some work to welcome back. Um and I I what I know is that those uh those parts that I need to welcome back are often exiled because I'm a people pleaser. Because I care deeply about what people think of me and how people perceive me and how people experience me, often to the detriment uh of how I prefer to show well, not often. In the past, I would say often, at the cost of how I prefer to be.

Lauri 32:09

Yeah.

Kurt 32:10

So I think that level of like, you know, we would say clear is kind, that kind of Brene Brown posture that says clear clear and direct is kind. Um, those are probably the sort of parts of me that I think, like, man, what what if I could welcome them back a little more and let them be a little more wild and untamed? Let them let them have a little more roam, if you will, if I can use that wild imagery a little bit.

Lauri 32:34

Yeah,

Lauri's ropes course story + the origin of Untamed Leader

Lauri 32:35

yeah. I love that. I love that. The, you know, I can tell you the history of this becoming the untamed leader podcast. There was a moment in my leadership training where we did ropes courses, and I was the one initially like doubling over and almost vomiting, even looking at the tree.

Kurt 32:59

Like like nervous, scared?

Lauri 33:01

Terrified.

Kurt 33:02

Terrified, okay.

Lauri 33:03

Like viscerally, I was looking up the tree we were gonna climb. And when my and I did it again because I was like on the ground trying to move past the threshold or whatever that was.

Kurt 33:14

Yeah.

Lauri 33:15

And I couldn't do it on the ground. As I looked up the tree, I would because it was a very, very, very, very, very, very, very tall tree. And I would get to a certain point and I would double over and start spitting as I never actually vomited, but I really thought I was going to.

Kurt 33:32

Yeah.

Lauri 33:33

And then I put it aside and said, you know, I'm I'm gonna stay in the present moment and I'm gonna go when my intuition tells me it's time for me to go for the sake of the group. Because if I'm just climbing for myself, it's not gonna happen.

Kurt 33:49

Yeah, yeah.

Lauri 33:50

And I did have a moment where it was like this woman did this beautiful swan dive off the front of the thing, like reclaiming a childhood trauma.

Kurt 34:00

Uh-huh.

Lauri 34:01

And I went, oh. It's my turn. Whatever I do, it's gonna be the opposite of that. And I had, you know, I'm trying to tell like the shorter version of the story. When I hit that moment, first I got very in the moment and I was climbing the tree, like looking at the tree. Yeah, yeah, so that there was nothing else.

Kurt 34:27

Yeah.

Lauri 34:27

And then I turned around and told everybody else, um, has anybody else seen the berries on the side of the tree? And I told them all not to speak because the rah-rah stuff was really not working for me.

Kurt 34:39

Yeah, yeah.

Lauri 34:41

And so they all kind of shall eat the berries, because I said don't talk, but then I was talking to them.

Kurt 34:49

Uh-huh.

Lauri 34:50

And then as I turned back around, I saw how high I was. And I said, Okay, I'm ready to come down now. And our leader came around the side of the tree where I could see her, which felt like it took like five minutes while I'm hanging on to the side of the tree. And she said, I want you to take, uh, I want to talk to the part of you that wants to get what she came here for.

Kurt 35:17

I love that.

Lauri 35:19

Okay. I want you to take one more step. Oh, I can do that. I took one more step, and then I had like a crying, birthing tantrum on the side of the tree. Very primal, wild.

Kurt 35:38

Yeah.

Lauri 35:40

Because I didn't suppress it, because it was what wanted to come out in that moment, and I felt like a part of me died on the side of the tree. And then I was like hanging there, sobbing, and then picked my head up and climbed the rest of the tree like Spider-Man.

Kurt 36:00

Yeah.

Lauri 36:01

Like, really, my body just knew what to do. It was effortless, easy. It was 10 times faster than the first half had been. And afterwards, she told me at the end of the day, you are a wild woman. You need to stop chasing the people who don't want what you have to offer, and go be who you are and do what you do, and let the people who want what you have come to you.

Kurt 36:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Lauri 36:28

And then that wild woman thing came back in 2025. And I looked at my own story that I was telling when I was speaking on stage. And I thought I was going to blow it all up. And I sort of did. And then when it put itself back together, it was like, oh, it's still the same story with the deeper clarity of that's what I was going toward.

Kurt 36:51

Yeah.

Lauri 36:52

Was this wild, intuitive, more right-brained, more physical, less logical, analytical, know everything ahead of time, have the right plan, and more of the like, I have an inner GPS that knows what to do, even in the middle of chaos. Yeah. Yeah. And at the end of the year, the phrase untamed leader popped into my head. And I really sat with it in the like, that's great. Could I get more information, please?

Kurt 37:25

Yeah.

Lauri 37:26

And it, you know, I was like, I don't know what this means. And it became, I started the year with an untamed leader retreat. And then I realized, oh, it's kind of all the things. It's like my biggest offering is the Untamed Leader Collective. The podcast changed to be the Untamed Leader podcast. And it's still evolving. Anna a business coach heard me talking about this a bit. And I said, you know, I'm very untamed when I'm on a stage. I'm very untamed when I'm coaching or teaching a class or directing a play. She listened silently and then eventually said, It sounds like it's time for you to be an untamed entrepreneur.

Kurt 38:14

Excuse me.

Lauri 38:15

Yeah.

Kurt 38:16

Uh-huh.

Lauri 38:17

The same kind of like, I think a little bit higher of a like, ouch, she's so right. She just got me, and I feel so uncomfortable and so seen. And this is a group coaching, and everybody else is staring at me, and there's nowhere to hide because I just said I'm an untamed leader everywhere else in my life.

Kurt 38:36

Yeah. Yeah.

Lauri 38:37

She was like, okay, how about being an untamed entrepreneur? Yeah. Mic drop. Yeah. Yeah.

Kurt 38:43

Yeah. I I love that story, Lori. Thanks for telling me.

Lauri 38:47

Yeah. So we know part of what makes a leader to me is that they're untamed. Or I'll say, like, that's part of why it's leader with it that became clear later.

Kurt 38:58

Yeah. Yeah.

Lauri 38:59

That we cannot change the world from the consciousness that created it. So if there were tamings and shoulds, and I'm only allowed to lift the lid on certain parts of me, it's harder to change the world from there.

Kurt 39:14

Yeah. Yeah.

Lauri 39:16

Untamed is part of what makes a leader. Today, with all your years behind you, how would you describe leader?

Kurt 39:27

Yeah.

How Kurt defines leader today

Kurt 39:28

I, you know, Lori, this is you can push on this if you want. Um, I think the older I get, the, the more years of leadership I get under my belt. My my definition of leader gets simpler. Uh I think today, and please push if you want, I think today a leader is simply anyone with somebody following them. Uh I I don't know uh how else I would define it because that's there's an inherent sort of um, there's an inherent sort of self self-policing. I don't know if I like that word, but a self-selecting that if if I am a leader worth following, people will follow. If I am a leader not worth following, people like I'll look behind me and there will be nobody there. Um so so I understand there's a lot of nuance in in what I said about like a leader is just someone with people following them. I think that includes the nuance to say, if I am authoritative, dictatorial, as you said earlier, if I am like living those parts of leadership, it's not gonna be long and there's gonna be nobody behind me. So I I do think there's an inherent like uh a leader is someone who can build trust, someone who can listen well, someone who can be curious and vulnerable. Uh but I think I think I would just boil all that down as a leader is simply someone with someone, someone or a group of people following them.

Lauri 40:58

I love that. I love the simplicity. And I started to see like the other things are threads or like that's the root.

Kurt 41:06

Yeah.

Lauri 41:06

And the they can influence, they can inspire, they've got a vision coming off of it.

Kurt 41:12

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I I I I want to resist. Like I every part of me feels like I can name, here are the characteristics of what I think a good leader is. And and I think that works itself out when people follow. Like I I think in 2026, uh, there are people that I follow, right? We we all follow, even leaders follow other leaders. Um, and and if if they begin to do the things uh that that we we've talked about all along, this sort of authoritative leadership, I'm not gonna follow them. So while those are certainly characteristics of good leaders, um I I think they're probably characteristics of good humans uh before they're characteristics of good leaders. And maybe that's oversimplifying too, but um, I I I tend to think of these as uh less of like here are the characteristics of a good leader and here's what it means to to be someone worth following.

Lauri 42:12

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sometimes the people with those characteristics will have a lot of people following them for a long time. And in other cases, they might have less people following them for phases where they go in and out of being the one that are that people are following and following others for a while and then come back and now all of a sudden they're leading again.

Kurt 42:36

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In in the in the church world, Lori, um, now I don't swim in these waters anymore, but uh you know, that there are really charismatic leaders uh who have a lot of people on the surface that look like they're following them, but there's this sort of proverb in the church world that says, who who's the best pastor or preacher? It's probably the guy down the street with 10 people in the building on a Sunday morning. Uh, like that's probably the best leader slash pastor slash preacher you know. And I think that's often true with leadership too. Like there are a lot of charismatic folks in leadership uh that seem to have a lot of people following. But yeah, I I think sometimes maybe the best leaders are like the quietest leaders with people following them really closely that maybe we don't even know, you know?

Lauri 43:22

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that because I often have small rooms and in 2023 or four, somewhere around there, I realized because if I stop comparing myself to the people who've got whole, um, there's a word for it, I can't think of it right now. If I just do what I feel is right, particularly when speaking and your voice is involved, those intimate rooms where you get all the benefits of one on one stuff in a group are far. Far more powerful and exciting. Like with nine people in a room, my acting teacher knew me as well as if I was a one-on-one client.

Kurt 44:09

Yes.

Lauri 44:10

And so I started going toward that and still frequently beat myself up if the room is really small, instead of going, these people are really dedicated and ready to go.

Kurt 44:23

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%, Lori. I love, I love the way you frame that.

Lauri 44:28

All right. I could talk to you forever.

Kurt 44:30

Yeah.

Lauri 44:31

And I want to ask you for people who are driving their car who are not seeing the show notes where this will all be, where can people who want to follow you find you?

Where to find Kurt + the brimstone butterfly explained

Kurt 44:42

Yeah, our website is the best place to figure out who and how we are. Um, our website is brimstonecoaching group.com. Uh and if I may say a word about the name.

Lauri 44:53

I got curious, so please do.

Kurt 44:55

Most people do, Lori. We are not marketing people. We probably should have talked to marketing people before we named our practice. Uh but uh we we believe in transformation. We believe transformation is possible. And as you know, butterflies are the only living creature that experiences a literal transformation in life. Uh and the brimstone butterfly is the longest living of all butterflies, or at least the longest living on the butterfly stage of life, the transformed stage of life. So we really wanted to capture this idea that we believe that that sort of transformation is available to us even today. Uh so brimstone is in brimstone butterfly, not any other sort of brimstone that people might conjure up.

Lauri 45:39

Thank you.

Kurt 45:40

Yes, thanks for the thanks for the chance. Uh, but on our website, uh you can uh people can see a little more of who myself and my coaching partner who we are and why we do what we do. Uh there's any number of ways to connect with us on there free of charge with no obligation to see if maybe our philosophy matches where somebody feels stuck.

Lauri 45:59

Love

Pivot Pivot: rapid-fire questions

Lauri 46:00

it. Thank you so much. Okay. Now it's time to slide into the Pivot pivot.

Kurt 46:05

All right.

Lauri 46:07

Kurt, what is your favorite word?

Kurt 46:13

Curiosity.

Lauri 46:15

What is your least favorite word?

Kurt 46:19

Curiosity. Because it's hard.

Lauri 46:23

Yeah. Uh what turns you on creatively, spiritually, or emotionally?

Kurt 46:30

Uh music.

Lauri 46:33

What turns you off?

Kurt 46:38

Uh uh uh I don't want to say this. I I I really get turned off by like science-y flow charts. Uh I have some engineer friends. I they it that thought process turns me off so fast. Love science flow chart Excel spreadsheets, I'm out.

Lauri 47:00

Yep. Good to have boundaries. What is your favorite cuss word?

Kurt 47:09

Shit.

Lauri 47:11

What sound or noise do you love?

Kurt 47:16

Uh rustling leaves in the trees.

Lauri 47:20

What sound or noise do you hate?

Kurt 47:24

My dog barking.

Lauri 47:28

What profession other than yours would be fun to try?

Kurt 47:33

Uh colored commentary for baseball.

Lauri 47:38

My husband and I have this um, it could happen one day. So if I say this here, I'm gonna say it anyway.

Kurt 47:46

Yeah.

Lauri 47:46

Um, we will pause sports shows to talk about sports. And one day I turned and said, we should start a podcast called Two No Names, Talking Sports. Yes, I would listen.

Kurt 47:58

I'll be your first subscriber. I love that.

Lauri 48:01

Awesome. Um, what profession would you not like to do?

Kurt 48:06

Teaching. Teaching kids, I should say. Teaching kids. Yeah.

Lauri 48:11

Yeah. And Kurt, what do you hope people say about you on your 100th birthday?

Kurt 48:19

Yeah, I hope, I hope they say I was fully present first.

Lauri 48:27

Well, I can feel that you have been fully present the whole time that we've been together today, even when I logged on and was a little bit in the juggling and the multitasking. Thank you very much for sharing your presence and your wisdom with us today.

Kurt 48:42

Yeah, thanks so much, Laurie. It's good, good to talk to you.

Lauri 48:45

Yeah. And if you're listening and this episode touched you in some way, please do all the things. Review it, rate it, follow it, subscribe, share it with a friend who you think might love to hear it. And I will see you back here next time.